A Research Paper By Sarah Poitras, Chronic Illness Coach, NETHERLANDS
As a coach-in-training with a chronic illness looking to coach others with chronic illnesses, I was keen to interview Jenni Grover. Jenni has been dealing with chronic illness for decades and dedicated much of her life, business, and creative endeavors to helping others in this community as well.
During our 45-minute interview, we discussed all things coaching with chronic illness and Jenni shared her experience and expertise which applies to anyone in this field. Of particular note are her insights and advice around creating and sticking to boundaries and tips for self-care and self-management as a coach.
Creative Resilience Coaching Approach
Jenni also explained her coaching niche, Creative Resilience, which combines creativity and coaching in an incredibly unique and powerful way. Her approach is one that any coach can find inspiration from.
Interviewer: Sarah Poitras (SP)
Interviewee: Jenni Grover (JG)
Interview date: July 8, 2021
SP: Hi, Jenni. Thank you so much for talking to me today. What’s your story? Tell me about yourself?
JG: Sure, well, my name is Jenni Grover. I am a creative resilience coach. I have a very diverse history when it comes to creativity and wellness. My creative background is that I’ve always been a maker. And a writer, I knew from a very young age – like junior high school – I wanted to be a professional writer. I wrote my first novella at 13. I was editor of the school paper, my freshman year, like jumped right into it. Just really obsessed with storytelling and giving voice to people who didn’t have a voice in the world. So, it was natural for me to turn my writing toward journalism.
For college, I got a degree in journalism from Northwestern University, Medill School of journalism. It was a dual degree: I also studied the Chinese language, history, and culture. Because I think the Chinese language is just so beautiful and rich and interesting. I’ve studied Eastern philosophy since high school. I did study Chinese for many years and came to appreciate the artistry that is part of the Chinese language.
And then, for years, I worked in trade journalism. I wrote about concrete and rocks for many years for Rock Products Magazine, which was not cool. It wasn’t about rock music. Partly I got into that because they needed an editor who had a decent journalism degree and spoke Spanish and Chinese, and I was like, I’m your girl. So that led my career path down a really interesting and weird direction. But at the same time, I was making ‘zines, and doing all kinds of funky, weird art stuff and dating artists and all my friends were artists and musicians. And so, I had this nerdy, bland career kind of thing, but this also really wacky side.
And then I got sick. I developed fibromyalgia and asthma and Raynaud’s phenomenon, and anxiety and depression, kind of all at the same time, right around the age of 25. And that began, for me a long journey of trying to seek wellness or even just some semblance of a life. Because it handicapped me for many, many, many years. Messed with my mobility, really messed with my ability to work, really messed with my ability to do creative work outside of paid work. And it was very challenging. I grew up in a very abusive environment. And we understand how the effects that trauma has on the body and the mind. So, I have a very strong suspicion that a lot of the chronic health conditions that I’ve developed come right out of that.
So, it’s been a really interesting journey to kind of fit in with what culture and society want from us, as women. And navigate what happens when we’re unwell and we’re not able to look like people want us to. I chose not to have children. I was kind of defying what a lot of people wanted from me. And that was challenging.
From that experience grew this project called ChronicBabe. I did that for about 16 years –I started it in 2004. And that was my way of trying to merge my creative side and my wellness-seeking side. I thought I have this kind of boring work, but that’s my paid work… let me do this other creative, interesting work that’s more aligned with my passions and interests. And service has always been a big part of my life. And so, it was like, okay, blogging is taking off, I’m into service, I want to help. Okay, cool. I’m going to aim this site at young women with chronic illnesses. I’m going to give them a voice, I’m going to show them how it can be done. I’m going to learn from them as they learn from me. So, I grew it into a big community… it started as just a blog and then I added a newsletter. Social media didn’t exist when I started it, but I eventually added every social platform. I wrote a book called ChronicBabe 101:How to Craft an Incredible Life Beyond Illness. I traveled all over the place, giving workshops, and keynotes, and consulting, I did one-on-one coaching with people, I had a membership group. It turned into a project that became my full-time work eventually. And I loved it.
At the same time… I was diagnosed with all these things at 25. I’m 48 now, so almost half my life since my diagnosis. I’ve had a serious illness before then that wasn’t diagnosed, right? So, I hit a wall a couple of years ago, where I was like, I’m exhausted. I’m taking pretty good care of myself, but I’m emotionally drained. Because it’s really hard to live in a body with chronic pain and chronic illness, and also have your entire social life in a lot of ways be about it. And your work. There’s no downtime from it. And so, I hit a wall; I just burned myself out. I was spending too much time thinking about, working on, talking about, being with people who have chronic pain and illness. It was just too much.
In the meantime, I had started to learn how to quilt, and I’ve made jewelry and I’ve dabbled in a lot of different things. And I was like, you know, I want to find this connection between creativity and resilience and figure out how to help people find that. Because when I think about ChronicBabe, that project was a creative resilience moment for me. It was a thing I made myself, that I put a lot of wild, innovative energy into about wellness. And quilting has been a healing experience for me: learning how to quilt and building a community around that has been very healing. And so everything kind of collided.
I was getting a pedicure one day and I was journaling while I was getting my pedicure. I was just taking some notes. And I had this idea and I started writing about it. And it was at the salon I went to all the time at the time, and my appointment ended and they were like, would you like to stay sitting in the chair because you’re writing something really important? And I was like, yes! I was maniacally scribbling this huge piece of writing outlining: what is creative resilience; how can I teach it to people; what are the components? And I came up with a plan to become a coach.
So, I now have a wellness life coaching certification. I’m working towards a creativity coach certification. I have decades of life experience in both areas. And so now the merger for me is I am focusing on helping people find that intersection for them that helps them nurture that creative energy and also grow it and use it as a coping skill and boost their resilience. That’s, well, I think I did all right.
SP: Yeah! That’s quite the life and quite the story.
JG: It’s been a big one so far. We’ll be more chill for a while now.
SP: Seriously. So, you mentioned a few things I’d love to ask you more about. You mentioned that through ChronicBabe you were doing one-on-one coaching with people. What did that look like?
JG: Well, in that situation, it was more like individual sessions and not building long-term relationships with people one-on-one. People would reach out to me; they would ask if I did coaching. I had a coach myself, so I understood a lot of what coaching was. I didn’t have formal training, but I was able to work with people one-on-one, here and there, piecemeal to help them through specific challenges. You know, sometimes people would just want to kind of talk with me and ask me a lot of questions about how to be more of a “Chronic Babe.” Sometimes it was more like a logistical thing where they’d be wanting to work through a specific challenge, say, with employment, or a relationship, or a creative project.
The majority of the coaching though was in a group program. I called it a membership. It was a group program where they would get weekly emails from me with some PDFs that had challenges and exercises and essays. And then we would have a weekly live Q&A call, where they could jump on and ask questions. And then there was a Facebook group tied to it as well to build community. I wanted to teach them that to be successful, they need to be self-starters. Like, I can’t be your only person. To succeed, you need to learn how to build community so you have a variety of people that are on your team. So the membership group, which was a group coaching program worked well for a lot of people for a lot of years. And then the occasional one-on-one sessions with people.
SP: And were there common themes that you saw that people would bring as challenges or things they wanted to achieve?
JG: Yeah, a theme that was very common and remains common with most of my coaching clients, because I still work almost exclusively with women – I haven’t set that as a goal, but that’s who I’ve attracted – is guilt. A lot of people feel a lot of guilt around taking care of themselves. Even though they know that they need to take a nap or that it’s okay to dedicate an hour to doing yoga or whatever, they will feel guilty if they don’t first do all the chores in the house, make sure everybody’s bathed and fed and clothed. There’s this huge weight of hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition that tells women that their job first and foremost is everyone else. And that the last task of the day is themselves. That theme has been strong, no matter who I’ve worked with. So I do a lot of work with people to help them understand and help them learn for themselves, how important it is and how essential it is to care for themselves first. To put their oxygen mask on first. And a lot of that is about helping them develop new beliefs about who they are in society, who they are in their relationships, and also it goes right to the heart of questions about self-worth: how we value our place and our presence. So those are really big ones.
And then another one that I don’t know if it’s a theme really but the thing that I just see a lot is how locked in people get to these self-limiting beliefs. These ideas that, I can’t do that. They’re like a dog with a bone. “I can’t do that,” or, “I could never do that.” So, when I meet people and I tell them I do 45 minutes of yoga and stretching every morning, they’re like, oh, I could never do that. I can’t tell you how many people have said that to me. “I could never commit to that.” And now that I’ve had a lot of coaching training, I’m able to ask questions that help them say, wait a second. So for me, a theme has been, how do I show people that they are creating their reality when they think that way? And how can they investigate that and try to consider a different perspective? They could decide to believe something different about themselves and have it make huge inroads. That’s been a theme for me: how do I learn to ask the right questions and get around people’s beliefs and help them see that.
SP: And those two things, in particular, both sound like they are generally applicable to anyone, but that they also could have a very specific, different lens for people with chronic illness.
JG: Yeah, for sure. Having lived this myself, when I first got sick, I was in the prime of my life. Everyone wanted to know when I was gonna have babies. I felt like I was letting the entire world down by not having children, but I had an unreliable, ambivalent partner and a body that I couldn’t depend on in any way. So why was I gonna bring a kid into that mix? Right. But I had this crushing weight of guilt and frustration and fear around it that just ate me alive for years. And so that’s just one tiny component. Then, you know, my earning potential was drastically reduced. In my second job out of college, I was already taking days off every week with FMLA, you know, unpaid leave just to go to doctor’s appointments. So how was I going to build any kind of wealth or build a really strong career path? And then I left a full-time gig in part, so I could come home and work for myself to have more flexibility to take care of myself. So, there’s a lot of meatiness to these issues for people with chronic illness for sure.
You know, I know so many people who feel just guilty, being creative, when they should be first doing for everybody else, taking care of everyone else. That they should be doing paid work, or they should be doing work they can charge a lot of money for, or you name it. So quilting, sewing, whatever, that’s not high-value work to a lot of people, which I think is BS.
SP: Yeah. Same. So one more question about that side of things. You mentioned that it took a lot of your energy to have ChronicBabe be your whole life. How did you protect against that? Or what would be some recommendations?
JG: I mean, I don’t think I protected against it very well, for a long time. Over the past year, I have ended my connection with my parents. And I’ve been doing trauma therapy to try to heal from this terrible childhood. And through this last year of work and also from coaching work and coaching training, understand so much more now the effect that stress has on our bodies and our energy level. And I didn’t understand that before. So before there were a lot of things that I thought were making me stressed out that I had no control over. I wasn’t giving myself control over it. I would feel unwell and I wouldn’t tie it to stress. I would say, oh, it’s because I have fibromyalgia… there’s not a ton I can do about that. I can eat right and I can take my meds and whatever. But now it’s like, oh, actually also, I can live in a quieter place, I can socialize less when I need to, I can build better boundaries, I can put all these things into place that lower my stress level to a place where my nervous system is a lot happier. And then I’m less symptomatic. Oh, look at that! For a long time there, I didn’t get all that, and now I do. So now the way I look at things is I’m building my coaching practice now and I’m trying to do it in a way that proactively protects my energy. And that means that I have a daily self-care practice that I do not waver from. I skipped yoga on Monday morning, for the first time in four years because I just really was not feeling well. But I mean, I never skip it. I was on a boat on vacation, and there was about enough room to put a yoga mat on deck, I did yoga on the deck every day.
JG: We do not skip this. I’m very protective over these routines that I’ve built for myself. I think that’s major. And then also, I’ve cut out some people from my life that aren’t supportive of these decisions. People need to ask themselves: Who am I surrounding myself with? Are these people that support me in building a healthy life for these people who don’t care if I’m unwell as long as they’re cared for? I think that’s critical.
For coaches, I coach people almost exclusively on Zoom, as I think most of us have during the pandemic, but I’ve been starting to coach people in person more and I’m realizing that if I have a client who lives an hour away, I’m not gonna drive to them because that’s a three-hour day. Two hours in the car. I only get paid for one session and physically, it’s not good for my body to be in traffic for two hours. I felt stressed after that session, you know? Even though my client is awesome. I want to work with her – it was the commute. So, I’m learning some things like that just to protect my energy and that it’s okay to set boundaries. If a client wants to work with me, and they don’t like that I won’t drive to them, well, then they can drive here or we can meet on Zoom. There are options.
SP: Yeah. And then, as you worked with people with chronic illness, I know that one area of coaching that we often talk about is self-management within the coaching space. How do you protect against potential triggers, within the coaching relationship, where if you’re talking to people with chronic illness, and you have a chronic illness, and some things will come up and maybe take you out of the relationship or out of the space rather?
JG: That’s a good question. The way that I enter my sessions, I spend a few minutes before kind of preparing myself and I try to put myself… I almost try to take myself out of this vessel and put myself in their vessel in a way. So, I’m trying to think things like: what are they feeling; what are they fearing; what are their concerns. I try to picture their space where they are, which is cool that we meet on Zoom because I can see where people live and work and hang out. And I try hard to keep myself on that level of listening and presence with them. So, I’m trying hard to stay out of my stuff.
And there are times in sessions where people say stuff that’s triggering, whether it’s about chronic illness or not. I mean, personally going through Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, this year, the first times I’ve done that without being connected to my parents was very difficult. And of course, my clients all wanted to talk about Mother’s Day and Father’s Day. So in the sessions around those times, I had to, before the session, also tell myself If they mention this, my job is to stick with them. And I have a bunch of different ways of creating those boundaries. So maybe it could be visual, I could imagine a little gate dropping… I tried to have some kind of comforting, protective visualizations, that kind of reminded me. And then when all else fails, when things are hard, I will write myself a little note and like, tape it to my monitor, right here that says, stay with your client.
We’re all human. No matter what protections we put into place, especially when we work with clients we’ve worked with for a long time we have a close bond with them. I think it’s easier than to drop my boundaries if I’m not careful. So, the longer I work with someone, the more careful I find I have to be to not let myself fall into talking a lot about my experience. Do you know what I mean?
SP: Absolutely, yeah. I can see that as you develop a long relationship with someone. It becomes even more important to stick to the rules, whatever those may be.
JG: Yeah, because it’s about boundaries. A good thing is that as I grow to know my clients more, I like them even more, I want to hang out with them. They’re really fun. I can imagine myself being friends with them outside the coaching relationship, and that’s fine. But while I’m their coach, it’s not appropriate to let myself slide into that too much. So, there’s a balancing act… I want to stay compassionate, and curious, and supportive without falling off the edge of the cliff and getting to where I’m gabbing with them like they’re my best girlfriend? Because that’s not helping them the most.
SP: Exactly. So before I ask you more about creative resilience, is there anything else that you would think is important about coaching people with chronic illness or being a coach with chronic illness, just to mention?
JG: Well, people reading this interview will not have seen it. But while we were talking, when I started, I was at a standing desk, which I then lowered. And so coming up with how you are going to set up your home ergonomics is critical. If you’re planning on working from home, or an office, pay attention to what your physical needs are so that you can manage your health. When I coach people, it’s typically for an hour and that’s a long time to have a conversation with someone and I get tired, if I’m either sitting or standing, I got to change. So, making sure that you’re honoring those needs… I’m sure there are plenty of people who would be like, I would never make that change from my standing desk to my sitting desk in front of a client. Well, you know what – if I’m doing that with a client, I’m modeling for them that you can be a person who has a lot of body challenges and still work. I’m showing them the reality. I don’t need to put a perfect persona out there; I’m just going to show up as the best coach I can be and that includes taking care of myself. This also includes taking pee breaks… whatever you need. We gotta take care of ourselves.
And for coaches who have chronic illness who want to work with people with chronic illness, I think that is so easy to fall into… because we can empathize so deeply with our clients’ experiences… it can be tricky because it can be easy to fall into really feeling sorry for them or getting emotional. After all, it reminds us of our challenges. I think it’s critical to figure out what your boundaries are going to be. So, there are some things I don’t talk about with clients. And I have that included in my contract.
JG: And so one of those things is suicide. I do not discuss that topic with clients. I’m not comfortable talking about it. I’m not trained to talk about it. I had numerous experiences earlier in my career with coaching people with chronic illness, who for very legitimate reasons, were contemplating it and we’re reaching out to me and, not only was a very triggering for me as someone who lives with depression and pain, I also just didn’t feel equipped to help them. I think it’s fair game for any coach to say and to spell out ahead of time: these are topics that are not up for discussion for me. So, if you need any of this stuff, then you got to talk to your primary care doctor or your specialist, or your therapist.
SP: Yeah. Even though there is always the emphasis on defining coaching versus therapy, that seems like the lines could get a little grayer when you’re specifically working with that population of people who are talking about your illnesses.
JG: Yeah, for sure. And no matter how much we set the boundaries at the outset, the clients will often walk right through that boundary. They have needs, and most clients who come to us do not have any idea the difference between therapy and coaching. And for us to expect them to understand it – even once we’ve explained it – they’re not going to get it really unless they’ve worked with a coach before and/or a therapist. So, I think it’s up to us to be clear for ourselves about what we’re willing to work with people on and to feel empowered to, even at the moment say: you know what, we’re veering into some territory that I’m not comfortable with; I want to be the most helpful to you and this is not an area I can help you with.
Women are also trained to be people pleasers. The majority of coaches are women. And if we’ve grown up being kind of people please-y, it can be tempting when a client needs us or wants us to do whatever, wherever they’re leading us. Because it feels uncomfortable, maybe to be super firm with a boundary. I feel like it’s a thing that I know I’ve had to do a lot of work on and I’ve talked with other coaches who’ve also struggled with that – felt frustrated and not sure how to enforce boundaries like that.
SP: That’s really good advice to keep in mind.
JG: Well, thanks.
SP: Okay, so tell me about creative resilience.
JG: I think that it’s so fascinating that we can stop thinking intellectually, and we can do things like grabbing a pile of fabrics, as I’ve just grabbed, and start to play with them. And start to look at them together and think about the interactions between them, and cut things out and put them on the wall. Like, this is my design wall. Right now it’s filled with post-its for business planning. Normally, it’s all quilting on that wall. But, you know, we start to put stuff on the wall, or we get together with a friend and, suddenly, we’re using our bodies, we’re using our minds, we’re using our spirit. There’s this thing that happens because we’re using all these different parts of our existence. We’re not just making a thing, we’re not just thinking about a thing, we’re not just feeling a thing, everything’s happening at the same time.
So my experience has been that in those moments is when we can do our biggest learning. And also that we can soothe ourselves and so we can make art about our struggles, and it can be very soothing. Like I will be frustrated about something, and I’ll tell my friend, I’m going to go quilt about it. I may not be making a quilt about trauma (but I have, I mean, I have), but I might just need that experience of having a tactile experience. Even the starch alternative I use has a great scent, so then I have this beautiful smell in my nose. I listen to music while I’m making it. It touches on all these parts of our existence. And then it’s like our minds are just more open to change.
What I find with my clients is that even doing a simple exercise with them, like doing a wheel of life exercise, and instead of just encouraging them to first draw a circle and then make it this many sections and write words in there, I’ll be like, first we’re going to do a rough sketch, and then I’d love to see what you can do with this with your art. So, would you like to make a mini quilt for the next time we meet? Would you like to paint it? Encouraging them, teaching them how to do some of the more classic life coaching explorations like that, but encouraging them to put their spin on it. I found it really breaks down a lot of barriers, and people are more quickly able to look deeper within themselves.
And so, I’m fascinated by that space. Most of my clients, once they’ve gotten into it, they find it to be such a really rich learning experience. Just multi-level. I also find that the creative process requires that we test things, we iterate, we collaborate with people, we seek to influence, and inspiration from all these different sources, we problem solve.
If I’m out of this color purple fabric, I’m like, well, let me go look at all my other purples. What do I get? We figure stuff out. And a lot of people who are accustomed to doing that and creative work, haven’t thought about how they can take those same processes and apply them to life decisions. So, I might encounter a quilter, for example, who has 100 shades of purple in her stash and can always massage and find the right color. But let’s say she’s at the doctor and she gets a diagnosis of a condition, she’s stumped. How do I deal with this? What are my resources? I’m alone with this. Like she forgets that she’s got a quilt guild. Well, you can also have a support group for chronic illness. You’ve got a fabric stash with all these options – you can also have a list of 20 self-care things that help you that you can draw from. You can start to draw parallels between these creative habits that serve your art, and bring them over to banal, but important life decisions like, how do I hire a therapist? How do I help my kid make it through E-learning?
So, I like helping clients find those intersections because I think that it creates a richer learning environment, gives them more options, and it’s also just more fun. Do you know? It’s more fun to just be silly. I have a paper bag puppet that I use with clients. Sometimes when I teach them how to make a paper bag puppet. And then we talk through how might they use a paper bag puppet in their own life. Like, can they yell at it? Can they set it on fire in the alley? How can we make it fun? How can you make these hard conversations like the paper bag puppet is great with an inner critic? My paper bag, I call him my hairy old man bag. It’s an older man because I have a very specific person in mind. But when I feel the self-critic voice in my head, I can grab that paper bag and put it on, and he gets a good talking to you. And it’s fun. And clients think it’s hilarious.
SP: I love the face you’re making.
JG: Yeah. And clients love it. And it takes what could be a very dark, hard conversation and adds a little note of levity and a tiny bit that makes it more accessible and less dreadful. And then they’re more motivated to do the exercise, you know?
SP: It’s so innovative and having just learned about all these different tools and techniques and ways you do things and it’s so completely fresh and innovative, and it also feels like it could work with anyone.
JG: Yeah. Oh yeah.
SP: So, are your clients typically creatives? Or who does this resonate with most?
JG: You know it’s funny, I am now heading into territory where I think I’m going to – I haven’t said this out loud yet – but I think I’m going to start working exclusively with quilters.
JG: Partly because they’re my people and I get them, and they get me but also, I feel like I’ve been trying to serve too many people. And I feel like I want to refine my messaging. I think it will make it easier for me to do my marketing and all that kind of stuff. But most of my clients so far have been quilters, or have been other creatives – writers, artists – almost everybody has been. I think they love this stuff.
But honestly, I don’t think a person has to be an established artist with a capital A to get a lot out of exercises like this. Because almost everybody has a box of crayons and butcher paper in their house. And I think if we as coaches can show them that it’s possible to do very serious life work with a note of levity and lightness and fun… if we can demonstrate that to them and they know that it’s possible later with these other serious things. But yeah, mostly creatives. And the more I do it, the more I’m like these are my people – I don’t need to try to serve everyone.
SP: At least for now – until this becomes huge!
JG: Yeah – who knows, who knows. Talk to me in five years. Who knows who I’ll be working with? I do have one potential client who’s talking to me right now who is very, very, very corporate. But she wants to find her creative side more. And I’m thrilled at the prospect of working with her because I know I can help her find a path into that. And I feel so confident that it will shift her life in a big way.
SP: Yeah, that’s where my mind went, where it sounds like it can easily serve both sides because of that intersection that you talked about.
JG: Yeah, it’s funny. I get people who come to me and say, I’m not creative at all.
SP: Oh, I’ve said that a million times.
JG: Right, ok good. So then I start to ask questions like, do you cook?
SP: It’s funny because when you were talking about this it just completely came into my mind that this is one of the reasons I love cooking and creating new recipes. All the senses that you mentioned and that it’s such a different, physical, thinking, tasting, smelling, working – it covers all these things. It made me exactly think cooking.
JG: Oh, cool yeah. And cooking is enormously creative. You’re creating a meal to serve yourself and whoever else is with you. And you can… people come over and we have this huge spice rack display.
SP: That’s the best.
JG: It’s on the wall in our kitchen. It is tacked to the wall, it is an oil drip pan. It’s a two-by-three-foot metal sheet. And then it’s all magnetic.
SP: I want.
JG: Yeah, it’s great. So you can buy the oil drip pan at an Autozone for fifteen bucks or whatever. And you just screw it to the wall and get your little metal containers. And people come over and they’re like, “who needs all these spices?”And I’m like, I do. Because I want to have fun in the kitchen.
SP: I do!
JG: They’re like “how do you use these before they go stale?”And I’m like, we don’t. We routinely throw away stale spices. I’m a very privileged person. I can do this. And so, I’m doing it for myself. Because I want options. You see this massive thing of fabric behind me.
SP: I know.
JG: And I think there’s something else to hit on this that’s key to some clients too is this idea of abundance. So when we feel surrounded by lots of possibilities, life feels more doable. So, if we teach clients that there’s an abundance – for me, the fabric is abundant in my studio, spices are abundant in my kitchen, there’s an abundance of hairbands, which I wear all the time, in my bathroom. I like options. It makes me feel like there’s more possibility in my life.
So, when we teach clients all these different methods of self-exploration, and when we teach them that they can create that feeling of abundance for themselves, I feel like it opens the world up for a lot of people. Because they realize there are lots of ways of doing things, there are lots of resources available to me, there are lots of ways they can grow and evolve, they start to learn these traits that will serve them through the rest of their lives. And again, it’s just more fun.
SP: Absolutely. Well, that gem of insight feels like an awesome place to end this amazing discussion. Is there anything else you wanted to add?
JG: Only I would just share if people want to learn more about me they can go to jennigrover.com and I have a couple of courses people can take about creativity and self-care and that is at learn.creativeresilience.com. Otherwise, I love connecting with other coaches. I think it’s super fun. I feel like we all have a lot to teach each other. So, I would love to hear from folks if they’ve got questions. And I’m so thankful that you asked me to do this. It was really fun to talk with you.
SP: Absolutely. I loved it. Thank you so much.